It's been thought about. It's been discussed. It's been ignored. People have laughed, others have cried. But as we all know, HK doesnt have a proper bicycle messenger service for it's financial/commercial district[s]. So the question is: is there a niche that bicycle messenger service could offer? Something that isn't currently being done, or do something better/cheaper/faster than is currently done.

I've heard arguments raised for why it doesnt (and won't) work. This usually include:
you can't quickly cross the harbor on bike
people already do this job, on foot using MTR
it's too dangerous riding in places like Central and Mong Kok

So what do other people think about messaging in HK? Could it work? What need could messaging serve? And what are the things preventing this from working?

http://www.geoexpat.com/forum/thread31050.html

a western guy did start a bicycle messaging company in HK back in late 90s, but closed down in less than 6 months!
he is working in a bike shop right now, i am sure you know who i am talking about!

i just read the post on the expat forum...
what a bunch of whingers!!!
NYC is easier??? and HK is tough and scary??? hahahahaha
no offence but dont we ride in HK???? are we dead???
ok some injured but that comes with the territoty...
smelly in the elevators??? NYC or London or Tokyo is just as humid in summer and im sure the messengers are still smelly there too... dude please!

i also think the time has changed since late 90s and 2008, the awareness for say environment and so forth is different. although i would say hong kong people care less about the envirenment but that is the aspect of a business that can be pushed with say foreign companies or people who care about the environment. pushing it on a green angle will be one thing...

another angle is the "coolness" factor. designers, film studios, photographers, etc. will most likely like the idea or cool messengers delivering your parcel. yes its superficial but it is true. if messengers are portrayed as the "cool" delivery dude rather than aunties and uncles in MTR with the shoulder bag then i think it will have a chance to survive. why do people have iPhone??? cos they believed the hype... being trendy is a big thing in hk and i think bike messengers/couriers can be cool or trendy thing.

not everything is about speed and people will pay for other reasons. of course the postal service or MTR is efficient but people use these methods because there are no alternatives.

how about after hours delivery service??? im not sure how many courier companies do this but maybe these extra services can provide an edge... say extra delivery service between 5pm to like 9pm? there are many offices who are open and need parcels delivered im sure and these times other delivery services may not deliver....

i know for a fact MTR is not that fast cos i ride from my house near times square to rodafixa in central and i am way way way faster than any mode of transport!!! door to door i am the fastest. so i dont know where people think MTR is the fastest??? i sure can ride faster than those aunties lugging the trolley full of parcels in MTR and onto the escalator or waiting for the lift...

i mean lets be fair, no one is expecting a rider to ride from central to tai po!!! that is silly talk and that is just ignorant rant from some idiot....
no messenger ride that much for a delivery (especially if there are hills involved)... in that case MTR can be used in conjunction for the delivery...

i think the blend of two will definitely be in need. those aunties can stay on the MTR and riders can stay out side or meet them in the station like they do now. cross harbour can be the same...

anyways just look at rodafixa. honestly i didnt think that it will survive but look how many people have gotton on the fixed gear band wagon (including myself) and loving it. the time is much better for bicycles and awareness globally has improved. so i think it is possible.

the only thing is what was mentioned in the expat forum. insurance and so forth. the real business side of things. also are there experienced messengers who can control the staff and diapatch, etc. its a good idea to dream about it but at the end of the day, it is a service industry and if staff and dispatch is not managed properly it will fail. the company will need to be run by experienced staff who can actually deliver, not amatuers who love the idea of being a messenger.

its like if i opened a business purely for the reason of aesthetics (looking like something eg looking like a messenger company) rather than to be able to run the business efficiently. if bike messenger business is run professionally and efficiently then it will work i believe. with good riders, good management and good clients. if one fails then no business basically... and by not working it is not the fault of hong kong but the failure in lack of business planning...

i think i raised most of the points about last time we discussed it and one problem in hong kong will be there are no real riders who will do it for a living. i like the idea of having the bike messengers BUT i will never be one cos i am not that enthused about riding for a living... hahahaha im a designer...

anyways bottom line is people are always procrastinators... they talk too much and never do nothing... hahaha time to get it on if there are real serious riders (which i believe there are none right now in hong kong...) the expat forum made me laugh though with their so so pesimistic view of it... no real points raised but bunch of excuses...

ok my rant is over... time to each lunch!!!

i did have a very solid plan to open a bicycle messaging company in HK but no one else was interested!

i think you need a good team of riders... that is important.
and i dont think HK has enough riders...

finding people who want to ride a bike to make money is not the difficult part.

The hard part is charging less then what the current courier services are.
They are dirt cheap.. and run by a network of delivery people who are divided into team above ground, in the MTR and the swap points at the gates. So it's hard to beat their time unless you had a solid number of messengers.

Awesome, I love hearing people's different ideas on this.

I'm of the mind that the riders arent the hard part. For one, I don't think you actually need that many riders. I'd even go so far as to say, starting off, you could get away with a single rider covering deliveries. In most cities, you don't go and pickup/deliver as soon as an order is put it, unless the client is paying extra specifically for you to do that. Now because it's HK maybe that won't work. Maybe to be competitive you have to offer immediate pickup/delivery. But even if 1 rider is not enough, I think 2-3 will handle the work load fine. And as B9T says, I'm sure that there's a couple of you that would be interested in doing this work. It could even be marketed to international messengers. Give them the opportunity to live/work in HK, cuz normally it might not always be that easy to show up in international cities and message, with work permit/visa issues.

Totoro, I like your idea of targeting the creative/design companies. As you say, I think there will be more of a knowledge/awareness about bicycle messenger services, and if the service is there, people will opt to use it. Perhaps in this case the international angle will work, instead of having a bunch of foot couriers that don't have a care for whats in the package, we'll have like minded people who can not only deliver packages, but also deliver information, and make sure the transition goes smoothly.

B9T, who is it that started a messenger company? And what do you think about the current climate? Would you be interested in dusting off some of those ideas, and seeing if it's something that can be done?

like every business, 1st we need find some investors!

(10-20-2008 09:00 AM)B9T Wrote:  like every business, 1st we need find some investors!

But what would general business costs be? Registering the company. Then marketing costs (website, fliers, ads). Then for equipment, professional quality radio/phones would be needed. Of course a small office would be nice, but I don't think this would be NECESSARY, initially.
Just making a guess, but I think HK$10,000 would be enough to start. Or if it was a few people working together, maybe $5000 each. Am I missing anything? Are these reasonable estimates?

So is rodafixa looking to expand its investments?

10K? Yussef did you do a typo?
I think you need at least another digit to even consider starting anything.

WINDman, you are so TODAY, i love it!
HK$100,000 is a MUST!

Ok, what kind of things would that amount of money be needed for?

i think you need to consider insurance: insurance on riders, insurance on packages, insurance on riders hittin other people/cars, insurance on your office, etc...

running a business is one thing but to make sure that when shit goes down you are ready is another important thing. seems like this business has lots of risks:

1. riders gettin hurt or killed
2. package gettin damaged or KOed (imagine your guy delivers an important document which seals a deal or something. what if he has an accident and deal falls through... will you get sued for non delivery? who covers the costs?)

also consider the pay system for riders. salary or per delivery. you know per delivery is more risky in that riders will haul ass to get the pay cheque... but if you got tight team and good customer base then you may be able to pull that off in salary.

i was thinking about this in the MTR... i dont know why...
but i am thinking that you guys are all thinking purely bike messengering but i think there needs to be both mix...

eg bike on ground and MTR staff... cos you will inevidebly need the MTR to stay competitive... but i am pretty sure that bike is pretty fast on ground... than those oldies with big bags...

i also disagree on gettin riders... i dont think it will be that easy...
let me explain why...
in a new business or team environment you will need to have a solid team...
you just cant have any old person riding...
why?
cos the riders are the ones that do the delivery...
service is the key in my opinion...
and also think of a restaurant... will you just hire anyone that can work on the floor????
i think good riders that will ride for a long time is much better than shit riders or cheaper riders who will just do it short time (cos you know this aint gonna be a cushy job)...
the worst thing you need in a start up company/business is high turn over of staff...
this leads to low morale or team environment, doesnt build experienced staff/team, and generally people will care less about the job...
i believe you need a solid rider who has at least done some sort of service job...

on the international riders point of view...
aside from the visa situation (lets say that goes through fine)
how will a non english speaking delivery person (or a boss such as yourself for that matter) survive in a chinese speaking country...
you will come across a company which is chinese or people who will prefer to speak chinese...
if this causes difficulties then this will give the customer reason to shy away and go back to what they are used to....

also i mentioned this previously...
i think it will be a good idea to suss out your competition...
meaning if you dont mind to, go and work for the courier companies and see how it works... check their strengths and weakness... cos if you dont have a full understanding of your competition then it may be harder to beat them...

as for the $100K question... depends on where you want to situate your office or base... but from reading this you intend to do it heavily in HK island or Kowloon area? yes? then the rent is a bitch, like if you sign a years lease... or commercially it could be 2 years minimum.... lets say you get lucky and get a place for $7000/month in sheung wan... you are looking at $46K for 6 months... i want to be optimistic but i dont think you will be able to make the money back in 6 months... especially if it is just one rider doing a delivery...

how much will the delivery cost? lets say $30/delivery at 3 delivery/hour... you work 8 hours a day... thats $720/day, so you work say 20days a month which will bring you $14,400 BUT that needs to pay you, your rent, equipement/stationery, etc etc of monthly shit...
im not sure if this is realistic but what do you guys think??? i think i was pretty generous with the estimate...

i dunno if this helps cos i just did it very quickly but if anyone else has input that will be dope to hear.... cos now that i look at it maybe it is hard to make it work.... hahahaha

Insurance cost alot for this kind of business...if you interested check out a courier company call Crisis Courier in Sydney, ask them how they work very nice people.

IMHO - dont start one, noone would want a company with heaps of liability and burdens. Unless you do it for the sake of it I guess go for it. Also imagine you have to send document to Kowloon good lucl going into tunnels?? have you consider that aspect as well??


and to MASA: Please I need help for my essay can u do it for me?? hehhehe all ur post is like an essay.

oh one more thing i just realised...
you cant do a one man delivery business.... for obvious reasons....

if you stop the business stop and you cant run a business this way cos once you stop you wont be able to pick up again cos so many people are against bike messengers... or waiting to see it fail... better get a team that is at least 3 riders?
but you need one in the dispatch so 4?

---

freddie: i charge by the letter. $1 per letter!!!! i think you can afford the first paragraph!

I guess if you're thinking of starting a messenger business here, you could start off small by yourself, only handling the financial district (ie from say Western to Wan Chai). that would make it a one man business and you would pocket all the money you earn and there won't be any office or radio equipment.. maybe just a mobile phone for clients to call. See how that goes and if you need to expand coz you can't handle all the pick ups, then consider hiring part time riders.
As for insurance.. couldn't you get away with personal insurance?

personal insurance covers for packages that is damaged or what ever????
but i still think a team of at least 2 is needed like partners...

or im not sure if this is a good idea but try to work as an affiliate to the current courier companies... like instead of doing deliveries on foot, do it on bikes... like on contract basis... this way you can utilise the MTR staff but do a quicker delivery or pick up...

Insurance.
That's an interesting point, I havent really considered. I thought about health insurance, but in the US I'd say the fast majority of companies don't offer this, so I figured it would be the same. I know this is a harsh reality, and not something that I'd want to make a long term policy, but for starting up.
But insurance on packages. That's a good point, which I'll admit I hadnt given much consideration. But I think you would have to have some kind insurance for this kind of thing.

As for pricing estimates, I think it's good looking at actual numbers and thinking what that means at the end of the day. As far as how realistic that is, I have no idea at this point. Doing some research on what other companies are doing -- maybe even working for one -- would be a good idea. See how things operate in HK, discover what area is underserved that bicycle couriers could better serve, and target that.

Also, the idea of including more than a bicycle is interesting. Perhaps there's a certain biulding that has different offices sending/receiving, so it might be worth having a foot soldier for for that building (say IFC, i dunno..). As for dealing with crossing the harbor, what about a motorcycle? That way you could zip across quickly, and they could handle the Kowloon stuff.

So in that sense, and for what totoro was saying, I think 2 does become the new bare minimum, that way, at the very least there's a bit of backup. That being said, I do know of someone who started a messenger company all by himself in San Diego, which has about as healthy of a messenger community as HK...

All that being said, I think WINDman's last post, basically hits the general idea of how to start the messaging, and then you'd hopefully grow a bit, to incorporate all the other aspects which are being discussed.